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Author Topic: What is Plusgas?  (Read 8931 times)
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« on: January 08, 2007, 12:10:54 PM »

I keep seeing it mentioned and it seems its the best at its job, what is it and is it expensive?
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2007, 12:15:40 PM »

I try to keep one aerosol and one regular can around, just in case.

Look for it at your local motor factor...

Or get it from Halfords.

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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2007, 02:12:08 PM »

Quote
...what is it and is it expensive?...



The can or spray cost around ?5 from the usual suspects. You can buy it in a 5 litre container and it works out a lot cheaper.....

 :cheers

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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2007, 02:50:13 PM »

Its the same stuff almost as WD 40 but they say it penetrates more, maybe ?? it the cost just penetrates more in you pocket (its cost more than WD40)
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2007, 04:51:49 PM »

Thanks, wasnt sure if it was some kind of heat gun with the name Gas.. I assumed it was a WD40 type stuff...
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2007, 04:53:26 PM »

From using both, plusgas seems much better than WD40, but as said,m is more expensive.
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2007, 04:54:23 PM »

Better than WD, smells like Diesel, which is also a good penertrating oil.
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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2007, 06:12:13 PM »

WD-40 is quite good, but take my word, Plusgas is 10 times better.....

If you buy it by the 5 litres it's much cheaper cheaper than WD-40.

2 or 3 of you could club together and buy 5 litres and div it up.
It works well in one of those hand sprayer units.....

Diesel is quite good, and better than nothing....

 :cheers
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2007, 06:17:34 PM »

Plusgas has a lower boiling point than WD40. It literally boils away as you sprey it onto something, which helps to make it soak into small gaps and stuff.

I but WD40 in gallon bottles and pour it into a sprey gun.
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2007, 07:04:51 PM »

Plusgas has a lower boiling point than WD40. It literally boils away as you sprey it onto something, which helps to make it soak into small gaps and stuff.

I but WD40 in gallon bottles and pour it into a sprey gun.

I would have said the WD40 evaporates quicker than Plus Gas. Maybe I got some old stuff pre health and safety..
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2007, 07:27:08 PM »

Red Diesel is excellent for the job, and if you can find a farmer with a tank to siphon some off of......... :-*
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2007, 07:34:39 PM »

and if you can find a farmer with a tank to siphon some off of......... :-*
Das, whenever your in north Wales you can stay away from our farm...
But i hear theres a Land Rover with diesel in it... nicknamed "bitsa" (ptc 309K john eastwood's)
;)
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2007, 08:27:51 PM »

I'm new on this forum, and I'm new to Series Land Rovers, but I've spent some years working on cars with rusty parts.

How do you KNOW the penetrating fluid has worked?
My conclusions over those several years are that I've never seen any evidence that it fully penetrates a rusted joint, after I've unscrewed it.
The first couple of threads might be damp, but no more than that.
I've always felt the joint has released because either there was a lot of force applied, or heat was used.
It only penetrates slightly rusted joints that would have responded to a good grip and reasonable force anyway.

Where lubrication is of benefit, and perhaps penetrating oil is better than thicker oil, is in lubricating the exposed rusty threads that can pick up or friction weld as one thread passes through the other.

I pay more attention to cleaning any exposed thread, lubricating it, then getting the best possible purchase, with the best possible leverage, as if the tool slips once, the damage to the nut, whatever, just means the next purchase is going to be worse.

If you are certain penetrating fluid helps you, by penetrating, fine. While I have it on the shelf, its main use is as a lubricant, not as a penetrant.

Thought I'd express an alternative view :-)
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2007, 09:37:26 PM »

I KNOW it works 'cos I've used it for nearly 30 yrs now and nothing else comes close. Experience and time is my proof. You won't go far wrong with this stuff.
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2007, 12:00:07 PM »

I would go along with what David says most of the time, because when you undo the nut (or whatever it is) that you have soaked, its dry 9 times out of 10, next time you do it have a look at it!! it is dry, but it helps when you take it off as you undo it and it caches up with the fluid
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2007, 12:06:03 PM »

Next time you undo a stubbon nut pick it up in your hand straight away, then you'll know why the thread is dry..  :(
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2007, 12:20:26 PM »

 :teacher

IIRC two different products with different uses;

WD40 lubricates and waterproofs which is why some spray it over dizzy's and leads to keep the damp out - you dont use plusgas for this purpose!

Plus Gas is a penetration oil for using to release rusted components. WD40 will do this also but not as effectively as Plus Gas as it has less capillary properties.

Also as said diesel soaking is just as effective for capilary properties and freeing up rusty components IMHO as you have to wait for them both to work anyway

Mike
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« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2007, 10:39:43 PM »

There is also another product, co-incidentally made near where I live, called ChemAid by ChemEx. It is very similar to PlusGas in that it is purely a releasing agent. It stinks ot high-heaven but os VERY effective. It is chemically based rather than a spirited oil. I find combinations of a number of different products work for me!

I prefer WD40 over all of them though, when applied in enough quantity and assisted by gentle tapping of the rusted nut to encourage the capilliary action. Horses for courses I guess, so try them! ???
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2007, 12:20:02 PM »

you also get some spray that is meant to freeze the nut, duz that work? i know its very expensive though
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2007, 01:40:35 PM »

I find Wurth Rost Off to be very good.
I get mine from my local welding supplies place.
David.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2007, 05:48:55 PM »

you also get some spray that is meant to freeze the nut, duz that work? i know its very expensive though
:-X

i have heard some good reports on that stuff from non Landy based forums Trackor rebuilds etc, but never tried it myself mabye a  landy owners that works in a hospital or medical environment could "borrow" a cylinder of liquid nitrogen for the week end and see if the theory works - it should because all you are doing is freezing thus shrinking the nut or whateve which will or should break the rust seal or is it me thats the nut ha ha ho ho I'm off to the funny farm tomorrow :o :o :o :o

Mike
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2007, 06:30:54 PM »

 :teacher
If you take off a rusty nut it is hot. All that energy you are putting into that huge long bar has to go somewhere!! It is turned into heat at the point of the contacting threads, the end result of this is that any light oil that may have penetrated the threads is burnt off, that's why it always looks dry.

D
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2007, 08:45:54 PM »

smokey 11a and 88inchthing.
I get the impression you both meant the same thing, as detailed by 88inchthing, that a nut that was rusted on, but has just been forced off, will be warm or hot to the touch.
You claim the visible dryness is due to this heat.
I feel that the visible dryness, and the implicit fact that 'hot' nuts have invariably resisted removal over all (or almost all) of the thread, indicates that the penetrating oil did NOT actually penetrate (and lubricate), thus the high friction resulting in the heat.

I'm afraid just quoting years of service doesn't actually prove anything is 'right'.
I too have some tens of years experience servicing rusty vehicles, and I don't believe the same as you do, so quoting years doesn't get us anywhere.

What convinces you that penetrating oil actually penetrates down a rusted thread? A thread that is so rusted it resisted the torque of possibly twice it's standard tightening value.
Penetrating down a slightly rusted thread doesn't count, in my book, as a slightly rusted thread will release anyway.

Without quoting example after example I seem to recall seeing a lot of forum threads (any forum) along the lines of  'After trying to undo xxx last weekend I've applied penetrating oil every night for a week, and I still can't get the nuts off'.
I don't recall as many saying 'After trying to undo xxx last weekend I've applied penetrating oil every night for a week, and everything came undone easily this weekend'.

If I was training someone I'd still say the first thing to do is clean the visible thread with a hand wire brush. This removes dirt from the thread, it exposes any mechanical damage to the thread, and by doing the nut at the same time, exposes any mechanical damage to the nut, such as rounded off corners. It also enables the spanner to get a good grip on solid material, not flaky or crumbly rust. Now you can make an informed decision on the thread and nut as to whether lubrication is required on the exposed thread. Lubricate as required, pick a well fitting spanner, and concentrate on ensuring it gets a good purchase, and that you are pulling as 'squarely' as possible. If the nut is really tight, after it moves slightly, work it backwards and forwards, even if this is less than half a flat, to free off the thread. If neccessary, and these are the sort of decisions that come with experience, continue with the 2 steps forward, 1 step back, until the nut is completely released.
There are other refinements, like partial removal of the nut, lubricating behind the nut, winding it back over the lubricated section, lubricating in front of the nut, then starting the removal process again.

This takes time, but at least you are getting the job done, unlike the 'apply penetrating oil, then wait' approach.

Sorry gents, I'm still not convinced that penetrating oil is any more than a psychological aid, in the majority of cases.
The question still hasn't been answered - How do you know it works?
"I do know" doesn't persuade me :-)

I do think lubrication helps, and a thin lubricant that will withstand a high pressure (think EP90, but very thin) is obviously better than a thin lubricant that won't stand pressure, say water. Thus there is scope for specialist lubricants to help undo rusty nuts. It's the penetration I'm not convinced about.

Cheers.
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2007, 11:14:28 PM »

I still go with Dave..........how is the heat gona make the tread that dry? is it burning it off? i think not, that?s no ware near enough heat to burn oil off (if it was in there in the first place that is) and i don?t think it will ever get on to a part that deep, and if it could, its not gona eat the rust away is it? Dave?s approach is a lot better and makes more sense
Quote
2 steps forward, 1 step back,
and give it a spray from behind then roll the nut back on to the lube and spray the front and roll the nut forwards. makes a lot of sense to me, like the freezing spray, it should shrink the nut and crack some of the rust as its shrinking , that makes sense too,, you could say well how did it rust in the first place? Water got in to it, yes it did then it turns the metal in to rust, and as you know the metal will swell as it turns in to rust, making a seal, so no more water  (or penetrating fluid can get in to it)   
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2007, 11:00:29 AM »

I still go with Dave..........how is the heat gona make the tread that dry? is it burning it off? i think not, that?s no ware near enough heat to burn oil off (if it was in there in the first place that is) and i don?t think it will ever get on to a part that deep, and if it could, its not gona eat the rust away is it? Dave?s approach is a lot better and makes more sense  and give it a spray from behind then roll the nut back on to the lube and spray the front and roll the nut forwards. makes a lot of sense to me, like the freezing spray, it should shrink the nut and crack some of the rust as its shrinking , that makes sense too,, you could say well how did it rust in the first place? Water got in to it, yes it did then it turns the metal in to rust, and as you know the metal will swell as it turns in to rust, making a seal, so no more water  (or penetrating fluid can get in to it)   

I think we are all partly right here? Penetration oil works by its capilary properties ie its ability to creep over and between surfaces

It has no corrosive abilities so if you have a rusted thread that is absolutely sealed tight by rust at a certain piont then the penetrating oil cannot get any further down the tread. Just like your hub seals should be keeping the oil at bay :hehehe :hehehe :hehehe.

There are i belive chemical release agents avalible that do have the ability to "eat" rust from between rusted threads but this is not how penetration oil works and I guess (but not having used any) by there very nature they will probably attack the surface of the thread also I assume? Not good if you dont clean them properly after undoing them?

I know all this cos i used to got to school :P

Mike
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2007, 04:57:28 PM »

There are i belive chemical release agents avalible that do have the ability to "eat" rust from between rusted threads but this is not how penetration oil works and I guess (but not having used any) by there very nature they will probably attack the surface of the thread also I assume? Not good if you dont clean them properly after undoing them?

I know all this cos i used to got to school :P

Mike

I refer the right honourable gentlemen to my above ^^^^^ posting! ChemAid. Dont know how its works, but it does!

In the main debate though, how does diesel help then? I have seen this on a number of programms and workshops whereby seized engines are left soaking in deisel and this manages to penetrate the surfaces that are effectively 'bonded' together, given time, so oil must be able to penetrate?? ???

Personally I will stick with WD40 as it has helped before, as has Chemaid. I dont care how it works so long as it does!!!! ;)
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2007, 05:10:48 PM »

:hi

I go with empirical evidence:

If there's a nut/bolt that I can't shift I:-

1) try harder
2) apply plusgas & try again
3) apply more plusgas, have a cup of tea ( or try to shift a different bolt/nut), and try again
4) apply more plusgas, and leave it overnight, and try again
5) heat it up, and try again.
6) cut it off with  :grinder

Usually I get to 3 or 4.  

Usually the nut will be dry inside and outside when I get the nut off.  So I assume that the heat generated would evaporate any releasing fluid in the threads, cos it evaporates that on the outside.

Boiling points of oils vary - generally the thinner (lower viscosity) the oil, and the lower it's boiling point.  but the lower the viscosity (and the smaller the oil molecule) the smaller the gap that the oil will penetrate.  Surface tension and wettability will also play a part.  

If I've got a stuck nut on a long thread, I run a die down the threads as far as possible (if I've got the right size).

In summary - Plusgas works for me!

Best

Mike





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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2007, 12:36:48 PM »

Pretty well agree with ^^^^^, although before the  :grinder I've got some socket thingys that actually bite into the stuck on nut - the nut is completely knackered, but it's off, and where necessary, the bolt is preserved.

To put a slight twist on this thread (  :-*) - I thought that WD40 is a synthetic non-mineral sillicon-based lubricant originally developed by NASA, and as such was formulated to lubricate at a precise point of contact then evaporate off. ie, penetrating was not in the design spec.

PlusGas on the other hand, I believe (no tin handy) is a mineral-based thin OIL specifically formulated for use as a penetrating oil.

Either way, I pay around ?2.50 for a 400Ml PlusGas aerosol..............around here it is known as "garage smell in a tin"  :hehehe
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« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2007, 06:06:09 PM »

Mk 11a, haven't you read the tin. silicon free since first invention in 19??. Try this thing called reading  ;D
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« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2007, 12:24:00 AM »

   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                                                                          :-[ :o  :-[

Guilty as charged yer onnnnnnorr.   :D

Caveat:- I did say "I Thought".......must have been some other lub that I heard about.  ???

- just enjoy my embarrasement  :-[ when I read my tin of WD this morning and saw that big sign that ses it DOES NOT contain Silicone.

Sincere apologies to the manufacturers of WD40 and all who use it.  :bow

I've got me coat.......... :cookoo

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